Natural Gas Booster - Jewelry Discussion - Ganoksin Orchid

Hi Rob,
My father/grandfather’s workshop used natural (town) gas and mouthpiece blowpipes to add air pressure. I first learned to use the tapered brass tube type (pictured below) that are only good for bench-mounted (fixed position) gas pipe outlets, that you move the work piece around within the fixed position flame. The small end sits onto a groove filed into the end of the gas outlet tube.

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This video short shows the idea:

Alternatively, the handheld type gas torch (pictured below) with a flexitube mouth piece are suitable for moving the flame around the fixed position job piece.

And video showing usage:

Natural gas torches can also be used with an air compressor instead of mouthpiece. These torches have a second screw valve (for the compressed air):

Or can be used with tank oxygen, such as with a blowtorch or microtorch like the Smith Little Torch.

Here’s an interesting summary of torches:

There’s so much variety, have fun.
Regards,
Col.

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the use of mouth blow pipes is ancient. before modern technology and during the turn of the 19th century, jewerly fabrication was done using mouth blow pipes… truly fabulous pieces were made with “primitive” equipment… lamp gas, made from heated coal and water, resulting in carbon monoxide and hydrogen was the first gas used before natural gas. Hydrogen came before natural gas. When I was a kid, I used a homemade blow pipe from aquarium tubing and a glass rod that had the end fused to a pinhole…blowing air into a candle flame gave temperatures hot enough to melt copper wire. I improved on it by using an aquarium air pump for airpressure… natural gas in the home is pressurized only to .02 PSI…methane (natural gas) burns at a lower temperature than propane. In fact, on a molar and volume basis, it’s the lowest temperature gas that is a common fuel gas.
Overcoming it’s limitations is by pressurizing it gives high temperatures and high heat output. G-tec makes natural gas and air compressors that have enough heat output to use for industrial purposes. Nat gas is delivered to the home at 200 psi, however building codes do not permit bypass of the regulator that drops the pressure to 0.2 psi.

What is the benefit to NG over any of the other possible options?

Like Rob I learned on a Prestolite plumbers torch. I was never concerned about the possible safety issues of the acetylene/air torch. Dad had one in the shop for nearly 50 years with no worries. The reason I changed to a propane and O2 Little Torch was the convenience of buying propane at the hardware on Sunday if I ran out of gas. I realized the benefit of the additional heat a Propane/O2 torch brings to game pretty quick. (The change over was not cheap I must add) The capability for bigger melts being only one benefit but it was a big one. I don’t do anything with platinum so I get all the heat I need with my fairly simple set up. And I am capable of handling my current production schedule for shows with my Little Torch in my One Man Shop. Perhaps if I were running a large production operation I would look into NG.

But is there a benefit to NG that a small shop like mine would find? Does it create a cleaner atmosphere in the shop when it burns? Is there less fire scale to worry about? Besides an NG compressor would I need to buy more, different, tools? (My wife says I don’t need much of an excuse to buy more tools.)

Don Meixner

Don…I am only looking at NG as a way to get all the compressed gas cylinders out of the house. As it turns out, the NG pipe installation cost me nothing. I initially contacted my plumber to see if he did that kind of work. He said that he did and then sent me a quote. He was in the process of selling his business, so when I got around to actually having the work done, the new owner sent out a couple of his people to do the work. Luckily the old plumber was still working and he came with them to explain the job. He left and when they were done I went to attach my torch to try it out and discovered that all but a couple fittings were only hand tight. I got on the and called the new owner and as soon as I mentioned that these fittings were so loose that there could be a leak, they suggested that I call the gas company and have them shut off the service. I blow my top and explained that their guys were just here and I wanted someone beside them to come out right now and fix the installation. My old plumber came out in about 30 minutes, took everything apart, reassembled and tested each joint and left very embarrassed. A couple days later they called and said that it was a no charge job because of all the trouble that they caused. When the two guys who did the initial installation were ready to leave, I asked them what they do normally and they said drywall and insulation. That is when I knew that I had a problem. The G-Tec booster takes on NG as you use it and boosts the pressure to as much as 15 psi. It is somehow designed such that it doesn’t retain any NG other than that which s being used at any point in time. The fire regulations for all of New York City are written to prohibit any compressed gas cylinders, so G-Tec boosters are what it installed. They are expensive and I don’t know as I will ever buy one. I would like to see if I can find a torch that will run on street pressure NG and O2 from a concentrator or compressed air first. As for NG, it is very clean and produces a bit less heat than propane. It is very convenient otherwise…Rob

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AA wants a bit over 4K for a used Sierra booster, about double the cost of the Haskel you were thinking of, but not too far from Haskel+compressor territory.

Not when you consider that the Sierra booster is complete ready to go with
Inlet and discharge pressure gauges
Inlet and discharge particulate filters
High pressure pressure switch auto cut out
Flow control valve for easy equlization
Non return valves
Safety relief valves
And a motor with full control, stop start buttons and overload relay to drive the thing

Add the cost of a 15 cfm oil free LP compressor to even the baby Haskel sports booster
and your over the price of the Sierra unit before your finished, like for like.

For comparison enclosed below is a Haskel build frame front and back we build with all of the above safety controls fitted but without the LP air drive compressor shown.

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And another showing a single 10 scfm Haskel booster unit showing with the big grey LP compressor box in the background left hand side to drive it.
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I've never used a Sierra, so I can't speak to fill speed in comparison, but the masterline is an innapropriate tool to fill a 2 liter with O2. I only did it once, and the 2 liter was too hot to touch.

Im sorry to disagree here but for the sake of fairness and accurcy filling a 2 litre cylinder at the 16 scfm charging rate that either the Masterline or the Sierra boosters are both very capable of is an operator problem not the fault of the hardware.

As Its a booster pump (and not a compressor) and like all other booster pumps as such you as the operator have to make the call as to the regulated inlet pressure against your required outlet pressure and calculate out the flow and also calculate your acceptable heat load and compression ratio with which to meet your charging needs.

For others the build shown in the photo below is an example we did for an prototype oxygen service application with both new ring material and seal modifications with some material changes.
In addition a high temp RTD high temperature cut out was fitted, the piston seals/rings and valves materials were changed, the plumbing was arrange as a single acting two stage design than the typical gas hammer design of double acting single stage boosters more suited for inert gas applications than oxygen.

Relief valve, hour meter, remote temperature cut out and internal inlet as well as outlet micronic filtration were all added for the oxygen version and an additonal increased 500 hour ring service interval.

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@iain/hsm the problem with the two baby boosters you posted pictures of is the 150bar fill limit which is nowhere near enough to make them worthwhile and part of why you almost never see them talked about in diving.
Make it 250bar and about $3k USD and I bet you'll get a ton of interest, hell I'd buy one tomorrow, but a 150bar compressor just isn't worth it to me and that's why the pneumatic boosters are as popular as they are

I appreciate what you are saying but this is not reason enough.

THIS IS:

With an oxygen compressor I am responsible for the design set limits, safe working performance perameters and all and any safey devices fitted.

With an oxygen booster pump Your are.

Thats it in a nutshell.

I appreciate what you are saying but this is not reason enough.

THIS IS:

With an oxygen compressor I am responsible for the design set limits, safe working performance perameters and all and any safey devices fitted.

With an oxygen booster pump Your are.

Thats it in a nutshell.

huh? with oxygen boosters out now that are going to psi to deal with the high pressure O2, what would the issue be?
My problem with this guy is that I would have to get creative to bypass the O2 sensor to use it for anything other than O2.... Would much rather have a microboost that can get up to 250bar and use it for whatever gas I want...
Philips - UltraFill Home oxygen system

Im sorry to disagree here but for the sake of fairness and accurcy filling a 2 litre cylinder at the 16 scfm charging rate that either the Masterline or the Sierra boosters are both very capable of is an operator problem not the fault of the hardware.

As Its a booster pump (and not a compressor) and like all other booster pumps as such you as the operator have to make the call as to the regulated inlet pressure against your required outlet pressure and calculate out the flow and also calculate your acceptable heat load and compression ratio with which to meet your charging needs.

Can you explain this a little bit, as I have little booster knowledge but am trying to grow it through these and other discussions. I have been interested in masterline/sierra type boosters but the information out there on them is hard to come by. On a regular Haskel style booster I know that the speed of the booster is directly related to the drive gas pressure and volume as well as the supply gas pressure/volume. I'm trying to understand how speed is regulated with an electric booster. Say for example I have a K cylinder of oxygen at psi and I'm trying to fill an al40 that's half full to psi. Obviously the speed of the boosting will lower as the supply lowers and the receiving tank builds pressure. I know that masterline has a decent scfm output, and I was told that operation is "turn it on and let it boost" which is obviously oversimplified, but how exactly do you slow the fill speed to decrease heat production? If you use a line valve at the fill end and just crack it to slow speed, it may make the booster shut off automatically (I'm assuming this). In this scenario would you need a two stage regulator (reducing regulator) to lower the flow rate coming from the supply bottle to slow the boost speed? I would think a two stage oxygen regulator may not be able to have enough precise control at low pressures (though this may be another assumption based on my misunderstanding).

Thanks for the info on this. I really have trouble finding any real world knowledge on proper use of an electric booster. I eventually plan to move to a booster to augment my fill station but am trying to build my knowledge base enough to eventually make an informed decision on what to get. You can always message me if you think it will derail this thread.